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timing advancer question

Bacchus Jul 31, 2009

  1. Bacchus

    Bacchus Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I have installed on my zl1000 a 4 deg. timing advancer, I see that zlmark has a 5 deg advancer installed. I was wondering if I could get some one to provide explantaion as to the how the advancer benifits power production and also wondering if more advance equates to more power in the top end? does advancing the timing shift power band up?

    I believe DW. recomends 4 deg of advance, and factory pro sells a fixed advancer plate set to 4 deg also, was wondering if 5 deg. is better as I have purchased the adjustable plate.
     
  2. gosupes

    gosupes Senior Member Supporting Member

    Technically, the added power will be little if any at all, but it will move the power curve around. The short story is that it gives you a longer burn time, more useful on the mid and top end and can crispen the throttle response down low. By itself without other performance mods, you might not see any real gains. Add jetting, pipes, etc, and it becomes a bit more noticeable. I felt a definite improvement in the 6k to 9k range. I rolled on the throttle into sweeping turn at 8k the other week and actually spooked myself a bit. Came on a little harder than I was expecting.
     
  3. lowlife

    lowlife ZL Mad Scientist Technical Author Supporting Member

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    Gosupes pretty well covered the power question. I would hope it would be a snappier throttle response. I'm not sure there would be any noticable difference between 4-5 drgrees advance. More advance only works toa point and that point is usually determined by the combustion process and the fuel you use. I would recommend 91+ octane with an advancer.
     
  4. Prostreet

    Prostreet Well-Known Member

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    +1 on the octane. Rule of thumb is more advance = more bottom end & throttle response. Newer bikes like my zzr1200 have a variable timing ignition. Advanced on the low rpms and it retards the timing as the rpms go up. Best of both worlds. I would agree there is no diff with 1 degree. I definately felt more low end with my DW plate along with his jet kit and K/N filter. Same power on the big end to boot.
     
  5. Bacchus

    Bacchus Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    so if you wanted to tune for higher power curve and more top end you would not want to advance the timing as this benifits low end..correct?
     
  6. Prostreet

    Prostreet Well-Known Member

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    That is correct. Advancing the timing on any engine places the spark at the piston before it reaches TDC. More timing, the further down in the cylinder the piston is when it reaches combustion. The opposite happens with retarding the timing. Being the cams and carbs on a ZL are tuned for bottom and midramge, it seems logical that the timing is advanced a tad. Factory pro sells variable timing plates where you can bump it up in 1 degree increments. Personally I like the 4 degrees advance. Slight HP gains , but like Gosupes mentioned, its a bit like taking from peter and giving to paul. It puts it where the Zl likes it.
     
  7. Bacchus

    Bacchus Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I am thinking in terms of improving quarter mile runs with my zl1000, if advance benifits low end at the expense of some top end, I could use some more top end at the end of the track, so your comments have got me thinking that for drag racing purposes four degrees of advance may not be right. sounds like the timing advancer plates benifit urban riding by beefing up the low and mid, but if you plan in winding it up and letting her rip at WOT then I should be going back to factory advance.
     
  8. zl1000 pilot

    zl1000 pilot Well-Known Member

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    :evil: hi ive just fitted a four degree advance unit on my zl 1000 but ive also fitted streight though turn out pipes from the front link pipe back removing the collector (power chamber)

    to increase power further i removed the standard cvk 34 mm carbs (same as 900 ninja gpz) and fitted the cvk 36 mm carbs (same as 1000 ninja gpz 1000 rx) i have also fited a stage three dynojet kit using the new springs and needles for the rx model

    then to mix things a bit more i have fitted a direct replacement K&N filter but have modified the air box by cutting away the remainded of the rear where the rubber cone is fitted drilled 3 20 mm holes the front of the air box bellow the carb rubbers and a further 2 in the bottom above the rear fender

    these modifications i have done to my ZX-10 b prior to my eliminator the only other thing i have done to my zx is had adjustable cam wheels fitted

    the above modifications have made the zl a lot more agressive it loud but so harleys are louder is has very fast acceleration but it also has better fuel economy as well

    another modification you could concider which would give more sporty riding would be to fit the cdi unit off the 1000 ninja (gpz 1000 rx )

    my calculations are as follows

    zl 1000 110 bhp standard the gpz is 125 bhp by fitting the larger gpz carbs i should have gained 15 bhp making the zl 125 bhp

    the ignition advance give 5 bhp so thats 130 bhp then the combination of the K&N and dynojet kit give 20% power increase so in theory my zl should now be putting out 156 bhp this of course is only an estimate and is based on the power gains claimed by dynojet K&N and the advancer manufactures and doesnt take into account the power gained from having a streight through 4 into 2 exhaust system

    that said my zx-10 b has been dynoed and the power has increased from 137 bhp standard to 188 bhp and thay said that as the engine had covered 45,000 miles it would probley be over 200 bhp if the engine had been new :thumbsup:
     
  9. vinny

    vinny Senior Member

    Welcome ZL1000 Pilot!:groupcheers:

    I believe that you are our 1000th member!

    I would like to see your straight through turnout!
    I bet they waken the dead ) or cage drivers!).
    I am not convinced about the expected HP gains!
    Have you put your ZL on the same dyno as that used for your ZX10?
    The figures may be quoted in PS - which is higher than HP.
     
  10. Bacchus

    Bacchus Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    where did you get the zx1000 36mm carbs, I cant find a set to save my life
     
  11. paulfun

    paulfun "King Of The 1/4mi (Internally Stock)"

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    You are forgetting the cams in the zx1000 and the zl1000 are different so your numbers are faulted.


    By the way welcome to zl-oa and congats on being the 1000th member!
     
  12. zlMark

    zlMark Cult Leader

    Welcome zl1000 Pilot!

    Like paul said and even more. The 1000r also uses a different head that was hand ported by hot, horny japanese women :rotf:
     
  13. zl1000 pilot

    zl1000 pilot Well-Known Member

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    for carbs try ebay .co.uk and search for gpz1000rx PLEASE NOTE the ZX-10 b carbs are not cvk 36 thay are cvkd 36 thay are angled up and require a fuel pump

    as for dynoing no its not been run as i said the manufactures of K&N claim upto 15% increase dynojet claim 20% with stage three the advancer manufactures claim 5 bhp and the only diference between a gpz1000 rx and eliminator enigines is the carb size

    if you look at carb sizes the zl1000 had 34mm the gpz or ninja had 36 mm
    the zl 900 had 32 mm the zx-9 or gpz ninja had 34 mm so the eliminators are de tuned through the carbs
     
  14. zl1000 pilot

    zl1000 pilot Well-Known Member

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    well you could as im reliably informed though not by kawasaki put on the later 16 valve head of the zx-10 b to gain power the ZX-10 ran 137 bhp standard and the cams give greater lift and duration more fuel more power

    the later shimed valve set up is also lighter and the red line would be increased form 10,500 rpm to 11,000 rpm as the vavle train was the only modification to the older engine in the later models
     
  15. zl1000 pilot

    zl1000 pilot Well-Known Member

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    OH ONE LITTLE POINT I FORGOT TO MENTION if you change the carbs you have to change the cable mounts on the carbs as the gpz carbs had adjusting nuts and the end of the cables are threaded just swap them from each other only one screw :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  16. vinny

    vinny Senior Member

    Just checked your profile ZL100 Pilot and you are from Lancashire!
    Nice to have another UK member - especially the 1000th!
    Even better when you are from the county I was born in!
    (Before the stupid boundary changes that moved my home town - Widnes into Cheshire!).

    You seem to have a good deal of knowledge of these old monsters and their near cousins - the GPZ series' Glad to have you aboard the good ship ZL-OA.:headbang:

    PS.
    Wouldn't the ZX10 B - have a possible clearance issue with the frame - if the carbs are semi-downdraught?
    I have seen ZZR1100 semis fitted to ZRX1100 and they said that coud not be done, so I guess its just another challenge to someone to see if it can be done!
    130 BHP sounds quite nice!
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2009
  17. zl1000 pilot

    zl1000 pilot Well-Known Member

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    as for the cams i have both manuels for both bikes and the valve timing isnt much different only 5 degrees in duration the main difference is in the brain or cdi the timing advance is very short on the zl compared to the zx-1000 A

    another thing to note in the carb issue is the fact that the ZX-10 b or tomcat models had large horse power differences the unristricted B1 was 137 bhp the restricted B1-3 was 125 bhp this was achived the same way as in the ZX-11 the carbs didnt open fully

    to gain the 12 bhp you changed the carb tops so that the carbs opened fully in this case in is practical to asume that changing the carbs on the zl from a "restricted" 34mm to an "unrestricted 36mm the power gain could be from 110 bhp to 125 bhp as with the example above

    this is purly conjecture as without actually runing the bike up on a dyno with both set ups it would be impossable to prove

    that said my freind has a gpz 900r or zx-9 a and i could keep up with him with the 34mm carbs on and now he carnt catch me with the mods :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  18. zl1000 pilot

    zl1000 pilot Well-Known Member

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    :hello2::hello2::hello2: thanks guys glad to be here :hello2::hello2::hello2:


    the advantage is having both models and manuels you swap bits :thumbsup:
     
  19. vinny

    vinny Senior Member

    Have you noticed any drop in launch speed with the changes?
    Just wondering if you have gained mid range / top end at the expense of bottom end?
     
  20. Bacchus

    Bacchus Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I am currently set to four deg. advance on my zl1000 my question is would I be wise to reduce this amount of advance for drag racing purposes?
     

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