zl1000/zl900 exhaust ???

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ARCHIVE_Rocket

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ZL/GPZ Bottom End Oil Feed Problem

Guys,
First of all let me just say this site is fantastic for mates to get together to discuss a velocipede with such passion (rarely see this with other makes). It’s a pity about the Pacific Ocean being so deep.

Anyways, let me introduce myself to those of you not familiar with my involvement with Eliminators. Last year I dumped my 26yr career for a new job that takes me overseas for 6/12 months (the old job used to, even four times to the states, but not lately). Well this new job is based 22km away from home so I found the need for an economical means of travel; I sold my ’84 Honda VF400 and bought a ’95 Kawasaki ZZR250 (EX250). Now this thing won't do for long 6.5hr trips (did four round trips, not comfy) so while cruisin' the wreckers I found this thing in a sad state and in desperate need of lovin'/money (not running and bits missing/busted all over). I’d never heard or seen a ZL1000 before but I was immediately struck by it’s looks. Anyway, with an in-line donk and shaft drive I couldn't let it go, but some bloke got to it two days before I found the cash. I waited for 6 months for another Eliminator to show up before I found the same bike on the other side of Sydney, so for $1,200.00 it became mine (that's our play money ie. ~US$0.70/AUD1.00). Well now I'm lovin' it some $3000.00 more and I'm so close to gettin' on the road (tank, levers, side cover arrive from the US next week).

About the subject matter, I may have a bent valve and will probably pull the head for a service. While this is being done I'd like to ask you all about a rumour I've heard (can't remember where). I believe there's a known problem with either the No 3 main or big end bearing on the GPZ’s/ZL's (caused by poor lubrication I think) or maybe another bearing. Is it true and if so what's the inside story and where/what website can I/we read all about it to get a good mod/fix?

While mine is OK right now, I'd like to now before I have to tear the cases apart for some other reason. If I know the fix and incorporate some good engineering while it’s stripped, I won't have to do it again some time later on. Aside from the valve, I’ve got this thing running so smooth I just know I’m not gunna want to take it off the road for any reason.

Also, are there any other known issues we should look at while the noise generator is in pieces?

Ta muchly...

Rocket
 
This is inherant in more than a few bikes,the ZX11 comes to mind.
There is an extra oil line available to help keep #3 oiled better.
It`s an aftermarket item and if you need it I`ll get the link.
I just run my motors a little over the full line.
The early ZX11s were having problems with this but I`m sure it was
caused by long wheelies.
 
Brian,
Exactly what I was looking for, now if only my brother (also Brian) could be so helpful. Like I said, this site (that’s you lot) is just great.

WESTECH's ZX-900/1000/10/11 Hi - Flo Oil Pan Modification looks the go. This option appears much neater than the external line and less susceptible to stone/impact damage from the road debris. Do you have any pics of the modified plumbing and sump pan or can you point me to someone else who may?

Bugger, I just refitted the sump pan two weeks ago after removing the busted alternator drive chain tensioner lock pin from the clag in the bottom. The remaining tail of the pin on the tensioner was swinging freely (nice if you can get it) and making a hell of a racket as it was striking the clutch nest on just about every revolution. It wasn't until I stopped this noise that I noticed another sounding like a bent valve upstairs (hope the valve seats aren’t too damaged, or anything else for that matter).

I did notice some wear on my camshaft lobes but didn’t get to look at the camshaft bearing journals. Are the cams/followers particularly soft on these motors or is mine simply showing (WESTECH’s) signs of my oil system favouring the crank in lieu of the top end (a blessing in disguise I suppose)? My bike’s done 125,132kms (~77,580 miles) but I’m told 200,000kms (124,000mls) would not be unachievable for these donks, and I don’t know it’s history.

What I don’t understand is WESTECH's supposition “Flow of our external (and later internal) bypass oiling system was up 25% in volume to the big end at the same pressure level”. The flow to various parts of the engine won’t change simply by installing additional or larger (unobstructed) plumbing. Pressure relief valves aside, the oil pumps output flow is directly related to engine RPM while the oil pressure is directly related to bearing/system leak rate (the pressure relief valve is simply a controlled leak). I don’t see any improvements to be gained in flow or pressure when neither RPM nor system leak rate changes as a direct result of this modification. If we accept this modification won’t change the oil pump’s flow or pressure, then all that a modification of this type can do is more evenly share the delivery of the flow and pressure already available. Even so, the oil sharing would not change unless removal of a restriction in any given pipe produces a greater flow past it than that flow produced by the bearing/s leak rate further downstream (a pipe restriction greater than a plain bearing leak would mean almost a complete blockage). Likewise, RPM being equal, even the pressure relief valve would not close to deliver more oil unless the sum of all of the oil system leaks increase thus requiring more volume to be delivered. To increase the oil flow by “25% in volume to the (#3) big end” necessarily means at the expense of other bearings. I would like to see how they came up with their figures and also see the pressure test results at all of the bearing/discharge points throughout the entire system, before and after the modification.

Hey, I could be misguided here and I suspect there are reasons why people are buying these and some evidence that the mods work. The WESTECH's website just doesn’t quite float my boat, but the ZRX1200 conversion… well that’s something else. What say ye all?
 
It’s a tough decision, and it’s certainly not an inexpensive one either way, depending on the circumstances and eventual outcome of that decision.

Ok guys, when I finished writing this I realized that I had way too much time on my hands… :wink:

My best guess is this…I would say that with the amount of mileage you are showing, depending on how hard she was ridden during that time, you may possibly not even have a problem, this possible problem may depend more on how you intend to ride the bike, then on how it was ridden in the past.

Here is my thinking…and my understanding of the matter… :roll:

I am no expert, however, I have some experience with industrial hydraulics and pneumatics, mostly related to pressure and volume issues. I really don’t mean to write a dissertation on fluid dynamics, but here is my take on the whole thing…

Fluid dynamics is almost always a complicated subject, and all of us can appreciate the fact that fluid viscosity, temperatures, radiuses, junction points, inclines, diameters, lengths, and G-forces, not to mention minor obstructions and relief valves, all play apart of this overall system, (i.e., friction points, back pressure). Now add constantly changing pressures and various volume demands, and you have a very complex set of changing values occurring at all points throughout any given fluid system, at any given time. If the oil pressure was at a true constant, nearly all these variables would be insignificant, or would not be present for any serious duration of time, or of any major concern to us, however, that’s not the case here. Surging and declining oil pressures and their volumes are interrelated. In any initial surge, fluid will always seek out the least line of resistance first, momentarily, or longer depending on the size and pressure of a given system, after that, it seeks to equalize itself through out the entire system and generally settles down and stabilizes. In an internal combustion engine this oil pressure changes rapidly with rpm’s, even when shifting gears, so as you can imagine, stabilization is not something this system does well, or very often.

When brazing a joint or Y connection oil tube, a significant glob of metal from this act of brazing can enter a joint, or Y fitting, it then becomes a minor obstruction, causing a friction or back-pressure, meaning that the fluid will seek out a lesser line of resistance first, before backtracking to pressurize the slightly obstructed branch of that same system. In a branch that has any form of given friction in it, not to mention that this same branch also has other numerous connections requiring feeding, this brazing glob forming inside this junction point spells disaster, over an indefinite period of time. This glob from brazing would normally never be a problem, except that this branch is already carrying a maximum load.

One analogy we could use is garden hoses; this may be oversimplified and exaggerated, but should be affective enough for this example. At a Y-junction, if one main garden hose has multiple secondary connections on it and a minor obstruction in it, such as a small marble lodged near the point of pressure generation, and the other main hose on that same Y-junction is a typical hose, with few, or no other connections on it and is completely unobstructed, and your pressure generation and supply is not a true fixed pressure system, of course the oil pressure gauge may read x-amount of pounds or Kilos, but down stream from the marble the pressure and volume supply is quite a different story during those times of surging and fluctuation. It’s during this lag time, while the system tries to catch up and pressurize this weaker branch; that is when the bearings are most at risk, leading to this single point of failure. In this case, I suspect that a relief valve, or perhaps a slightly weak one, may in fact actually help add to the overall lag time during equalization.

Since no recall has ever been made, I suspect the number of defective brazing jobs was negligible, however, seems that the people yanking the hardest on their bikes tended to be more at risk, and any artificially aspirated engines also seemed to succumb to this single point of failure. MachIV mentioned that riding long wheelies was another possible contributor to this known failure.

You can be sure the last thing I need is a rod through the block, at any speed, and that I will be checking the bottom end, also the valve clearances as well as cam wear on the top end, and basically identifying overall wear this coming winter. I suspect that I will send my oil pan in for this modification during the off-season, when the snow is flying, regardless of my findings. For me…I prefer to play it safe, rather then to be sorry, and I suspect that I may be yanking mine around a little more then I should be, consequently my odds improve dramatically towards the single point of failure scenario. Quite frankly, I am very hard on my equipment, and if it has a weak point, I’ll find it… :mrgreen:

I call it peace-of-mind, especially if I keep contemplating a new paint job.

I know, lets just ask Gary, aka, connorsracing, he has been yanking hard on his bike over a considerable period of time; wonder if he bothered modifying his oil pan before pushing it to the limits? :idea:

"Vortices"

"Vortex separation"

Brian
 
Damn guys, this is quite possibly the most technical discussion I have ever seen!!! See it's things like this that make this whole thing worthwhile.

So Brian in a nutshell what you are saying is that because of the fluctuating oil pressures due to the oil pump being operated directly off of crank speed the problem is there is some type of restriction going to the bottom end bearings (specifically #3) and fluctuating oil pressures can leave this bearing under oiled as the pressure has other paths it wants to take first. Essentially the Westech mod is a new "path of least resistance" going to the bottom end thus supplying a new path the oil will want to travel under intiial pressure increase.

The 25% increase is due to the pump available volume at a given rpm and pressure whereas before the mod, more "pressure relief" valves would kick in lowering pressure and wasting potential volume whereas with the mod you still have the same pressure going to the top end but more volume going to the bottom end, where the relief valves are operating less as the oil has a new path to go thus utilizing the given output of the oil pump more efficiently?

Ethan
 
Technical

Geeesh, I've got a headache after all that. :cry: :( :cry: :( OK, now how about lamen's/idiots terms for the rest of us - or at least me - hahaha. Great info/theories/discussion. Later.
 
Exactly, and very well explained in layman’s terms Ethan, (i.e., easily understood)…

…Understand my point-of-view; as it applies to me, I have no history on my Eli’s past, her prior 19-years of service is completely unknown to me. For all I may know there is 19-years worth of oil sludge built-up in her oil passages, and is still building up today, further increasing my odds of just such a catastrophic bearing failure. If she sat retired and outside with a full gullet of dirty oil for an extended period of time, at any point during these 19-years, this also increases my odds significantly. I believe this makes my Eli an excellent candidate for just this type of bypass surgery, in addition to a general inspection for wear and a possible overhaul, as may be deemed necessary. Lets face it; we all know the end result of a clogged or blocked artery in a circulatory system, if it is not bypassed, or cleared.

Again, this is a known problem, for me to turn a blind eye to this potential heart problem, as though it does not exist, or that I am one of the lucky ones, is simply something I cannot do, while I continue to invest in her.

I have noticed that you can effortlessly fan the clutch on these Eli’s at redline, and I also find that you will be doing this at a rate of 1 every 2-seconds. Lets face it guys, any one of us given 1320 feet, and 12-13 seconds, can be redlining in top gear, at well over a 100 mph. I figure the last thing I need to happen at this exact point in time, on a 19-year old bike, is to throw a bearing and blow a rod through the side of the block, no thanks, I don’t even want to consider this as even the remotest of possibilities during this time. What day or night is really complete without fanning and redlining all the way up to at least 5th, maybe even a couple of times? It’s the feeling you get from this bikes unrelenting climb rate, for if it had wings and an air propulsion system, I swear, it feels like you would simply redline 6th gear, fan the clutch one more time, and begin your assent to cruising altitude. 8)

Brian
 
Will zl1000 mufflers fit a zl900? if so what is the difference? Every thing else is the same but the muffler body.

zl900;
18002 18002-1592
Add to pick list BODY-COMP-MUFFLER,LH 1
18002A 18002-1593
Add to pick list BODY-COMP-MUFFLER,RH 1

zl1000;
18002 18002-1689
Add to pick list BODY-COMP-MUFFLER,LH 1
18002A 18002-1690
Add to pick list BODY-COMP-MUFFLER,RH 1
 
Rick_in_WA said:
Mark there was a post someplace that someone did put the 9 mufflers on a 1000, ~maybe the other way around~.....
Click to expand...
I was looking for that, cant remember where i seen that. well i might just have to take a chance
 
Without mounting the mufflers I see they both the zl900 and the zl1000 have Sankei 2235 stamped on them.
 
mufflers

Rick, not true my friend on the 600 and 9 or 1000 the same. They may have the same number stamped on the shells but they have different mounting angles to the exhaust tubes. I should know perfectly because I own 2 1000's and 1 600. Don't want to confuse anyone with wrong info. Furchin
 
Re: mufflers

furchin said:
Rick, not true my friend on the 600 and 9 or 1000 the same. They may have the same number stamped on the shells but they have different mounting angles to the exhaust tubes. I should know perfectly because I own 2 1000's and 1 600. Don't want to confuse anyone with wrong info. Furchin
Click to expand...

I honestly dont know the new ~600~ ones have not been mounted yet but they damn sure like like they gonna fit the 86 900 so basicly your saying the "shell" is the same number but the muffler itself isnt the same?..... interesting. and the plot thickens
 
ZL900 and ZL1000 mufflers are same on outer dimensions. Only the sound of them is difference ZL1000 have little softer.

ZL600 new and old have the same mufflers and they wont fit to ZL900/1000 whitout welding
 
So my buddie buys a set of mufflers from e-bay useing a correct part number for his 900, they get here they have the same number and the e-bay listing said zl600. part number matches the ZL9 one I got from Moab as well as the number on Bulls., it all jives but you guys are saying it wont work?..... I cant say 100% it came off a 600, the seller said a 600. but the part number is the same
Kawaski misstake? seller misstake...... or is there two sets of wrong mufflers on our two bikes?
 
This is interesting.... My ZL 750 has stock kawa mufflers and the numbers stamped on the side are:-

SANKEI 2235
KHI K 128

I've been looking for a right side muffler and expected the 600, 750, 900 and 1000 to be using the same muffler...? They sure look the same. Could the sankei 2235 be a general description and maybe the other numbers I added are the difference? .....if there is a difference in inlet angle or bracket location? I'd wonder though, why kawasaki wouldn't make them the same to cut down on tooling and inventory stock back in the day. If they're so similar in appearance, why make slight engineering differences... I'm surprised with the japs that they didnt make these parts interchangable, those guys invented the concept.

If anyone reading this could get the numbers off their stock muffler and post it here along with their bike model, that might help??

I'm really interested in hearing how you get on with fitting those mufflers Rick.

thanks,

Blag
 
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