Clutch Disengage Problems

I think it is time to admit defeat. Here is what I have done today:

  1. I totally cleaned out the lines and replaced the crush washers.
  2. Bled and bled and bled until the lever was nice and tight.
  3. Start it up and go down the driveway. Then sit at the bottom of the drive and put it into first gear and pull the lever in. Then it starts to creep forward. It only takes a few millimeters of lever release to disengage the clutch and the bike will start to move but as I release the lever it feels spongy.
  4. Pull the lever back in and it is tight again and not spongy.
  5. Once it has started to creep forwards I cannot change gear and it feels like it is locked in gear. I then have to kill the engine and restart it in gear. Of course the bike will lurch forwards but then I change gear back into neutral.


When I had the whole clutch basket and components out, I checked the bearing and it spins nicely and so not locking up. The only thing I have not replaced is the clutch plates itself.

I guess it is time to admit defeat and take it into a mechanic to be repaired. In the four years I have owned this bike, I have never needed to take it into anybody as I have always been able to fix it myself.... but I am at a loss.

Really bummed out :-(
 
OK I have some more thoughts. The three things I have not replaced are the replaceables on the master and slave cylinders. I guess I could rebuild these. However I just had another thought. As I mentioned right back at the beginning, I did run the bike down on oil. It is possible that I dried out the clutch plates and now they stick. I did take the plates apart and measure them and they were in spec but maybe I fried them. Before putting it all back together, I did soak them overnight in oil.

I wonder if I burnt the plates which is why they are sticking. What are other people's thoughts?
 
I don't know much about clutches because I've never played with them yet but your issue sounds like its in the slave cylinder. (from what very limited clutch knowledge that I have)
 
If the clutch plates showed no damage, mic'd to spec, you resoaked them and have plenty of oil in the crankcase, I would think they would be fine. Still sounds like a hydraulic issue with the master, slave, line or air in the system. Are you using the factory rubber/steel clutch line? Brakes and clutch hydraulics on these things are a real pain - I've never figured out any one sure fire way to get things back to normal when replacing or working on the brakes or clutches. Good luck. Later.
 
Just in case some people have not seen it, here is a tech doc on bleeding with a couple of options. I have yet to try these methods, but it seems more and more people are having trouble with bleeding the brakes/clutch. I just received a message from a long time member having the same trouble - getting things to bleed properly and getting the feel back at the lever. Later.


http://www.zl-oa.com/community/threads/Bleeding-Brakes-Clutch.16569
 
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Just a thought, when you put that final clutch plate in did you offset it?
 
Good advice about the oil!!! Rotella T 15-40 Dino oil has been real good to me. I do change it more than I should, but @ 12.00 a gallon...well...It's up to you..

UPDATE: 3 hours and 2 gallons...yes 2 gallons of brake fluid and my clutch feels brand new....I bled the brakes for 3 hours, taking my time til absolutely ZERO bubbles came out. I took it for a ride and WOW, I really had to hang on when I goosed the throttle. Best feeling it's had since I owned it. I did a 30 foot burnout...then pulled the front up and kissed the sky! So...be patient...bleed, bleed bleed bleed the system

This may not solve your issues, but for me, well, I won't have to tear into the clutch just yet. Enjoy your Sunday....NASCAR is on FOX...Take care and God Bless.
 
Many thanks for all of your good suggestions. In response to these:

I have completely disassembled the slave cylinder and checked that it was not leaking. Although the piston in the slave is pitted, the seal seems good and nothing is seeping past the seal. Also I am not getting any leaking at the banjo or bleeder. When I pull the lever with the slave off, the piston does move.

I took apart the master cylinder too and gave it a good clean. I did not replace any parts there but nothing is leaking around that area either.

I did pull the whole line apart too and gave the threads where they all screw together about midway a good clean too – nothing leaking here. I am still using the original clutch lines from factory.

After I realized that I had run really low on oil, I changed out the filter and put new oil in it. So I know that the oil level is correct.

Final clutch plate is offset just like it says in the manual.

Using proper motorcycle oil – not fully synthetic but this problem was occurring even before I replaced the oil.

When it comes to bleeding, I think I have this down to a fine art. I find that reverse filling saves a whole lot of time. Here is what I do:
  1. Take a syringe and fill it with fluid.
  2. Connect it via a small pipe to the bleeder at the slave.
  3. Depress the syringe and watch the bubbles flow out of the master cylinder at the top.
  4. When the bubbles have stopped, tighten the bleeder and pump the level until it is tight. Because there should be no bubbles in the line now, it should stiffen up real fast (insert funny stiffy joke here).
  5. Then crack open the bleeder again and bleed from the bottom again. No bubbles any more.



I have called the bike shops to get a price on new plates. Wondering if I should fork out for slave and master rebuild kits too.
 
Did you make sure that tiny little hole in master cylinder is not clogged? (There are 2 holes in master cylinder) I like to use a piece of wire from a wire brush. Did you take the lines off at the master cylinder?
 
Yes, when I pulled apart the master cylinder completely I check the little holes. I even put a tiny thin stranded guitar wire through it.

If there was air in the lines then the lever would be spongy but it isn't. The only time it feels spongy is on release once I have it pulled it in and in first gear when it creeps. Release the lever fully and the pull it in again and it is tight as anything like it is supposed to be.

I have another thought. If the friction plates (the fibre ones and not the steel ones) are burned then they would be sticking and not gripping properly. If they do not grip properly then they would not grip and so would not fully disengage the clutch which is why is would creep.

I also just spoke to the local Kawasaki dealership mechanic and he told me that if the plates were not warped and they were all still in spec then that probably isn't the problem. He suggested that the master cylinder may not be working properly and that I should buy a new kit and service it.
 
What would indicate a bad bearing? It seems to rotate freely when I had the whole clutch basket off? How do I know if it has gone kaput?
 
Save your $ its not in the clutch plates,they ethier slip or chatter(shake back n forth do to plate worp)! This is in your hydraulics! Let me ask you this,after you bleed the hell out of it and get a good firm clutch lever and take off and stop and its back to the creep,have you shut the bike off and put it in neutral, can you pump the lever and get a hard lever back? Now if you cant try this, take 10mm with you and when the lever goes soft, shut bike off pump lever 5-6time and with the lever held in reach down crack open slave cylinder bleeder,close bleeder and see if you get a lever back,? You say you rebuilt the master cyld / if so did you get the rubber seals in the right way?:goodluck: My 2cents!!
 
ok i went back and read some more..when you had the master cyl apart to clean did you spray the rubber seals with brake cleaner? If so,the seals will swell up from the cleaner and this might be your problem...also take you slave cyl apart and clean, the fluid builds up crap on the back side of the piston and can mess with the operation of it! I think you should order the rebuild kits for both the master and salve cyl and put those ? to rest! And I'd almost bet that takes care of it!!!:goodluck::thumbsup:
 
I also just spoke to the local Kawasaki dealership mechanic and he told me that if the plates were not warped and they were all still in spec then that probably isn't the problem. He suggested that the master cylinder may not be working properly and that I should buy a new kit and service it.
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Wow, Good advise from a Kaw dealer, thats rare!

I agree with madmanncr500.

My Son had similar symptoms a couple years ago, cleaned and put a kit in the master and was good to go.

Check the zl-oa store, not sure if Baccus has kits or you can pick em up on Ebay pretty cheap, I have had very good experience with seller Georgefix, good price and fast shipping.

As was mentioned earlier, what kind of oil are you using? I remember peeps having clutch probs from the wrong oil!

I have had two clutches go out (or start to) One on my ZL1K and one on my Sons ZL9. Both were the result of a LOT of two up riding.
Both acted the same, slipping after shifting while riding hard. I'm sure that would have gotten worse over time but we replaced them as soon as the symptoms began.

If you decide to replace the plates it won't hurt anything but your pocketbook. Go with Barnetts, I bought the whole kit on Ebay for around $200.

I replaced the clutch in my ZL1K almost 20,000 miles and probably 150 or so dragstrip runs ago and it still performs like the day I put it in!
 
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I bought a new master and slave clutch rebuild kits from Georgefix yesterday so hopefully they will arive sometime next week. I have bought off him before and I was VERY impressed with the whole deal.

When I did take the slave and master apart, I did not spray cleaner into them as I know it eats away the rubber. It is possible that the rubber is not sealing well in the master and may be letting air in.

"This is in your hydraulics! Let me ask you this,after you bleed the hell out of it and get a good firm clutch lever and take off and stop and its back to the creep,have you shut the bike off and put it in neutral, can you pump the lever and get a hard lever back?"

In response to your suggestion above - if I shut the bike off. I then need to start it in gear which will make the bike jump. I can then put it into neutral. When I do this, the lever is hard again and no soggyness. It only goes soggy if I hold the lever in for a bit.

Hopefull the new kit will sort this out. I did price up new clutch friction plates from the Kaw dealer. Holly Kaw!!! It is massivley expensive. If I eventually need to, I will buy one from Ebay in the States. You do not know how lucky you guys are in the USA as bike parts are so cheap compared to NZ. Our prices are 3 times more expensive for the same items. This is why I buy from the USA because even with shipping it is a whole lot cheaper.
 
You said it gets "soggy" after you hold it in for a while. Are you absolutely 100% certain no cracks/pinhole leaks etc in the line? Did you clean/dry the outside surface of slave cylinder? Check for signs of seeping/leaking etc over the whole system. It really sounds like you're sucking air in somewhere.
 
You rebuild the above said, and i bet you will be good to go!! You dont need a new clutch kit!!! Like i said before its in the hydraulics!!!! After rebuilding both, bleed and bleed and bleed,and when your done....bleed agin!!!!!:goodluck:
 
Bozang1 said:
You said it gets "soggy" after you hold it in for a while. Are you absolutely 100% certain no cracks/pinhole leaks etc in the line? Did you clean/dry the outside surface of slave cylinder? Check for signs of seeping/leaking etc over the whole system. It really sounds like you're sucking air in somewhere.
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You are correct.... There is the answer. It goes spongy when he holds it in.... Air for sure
 
Hopefull the new kit will sort this out. I did price up new clutch friction plates from the Kaw dealer. Holly Kaw!!! It is massivley expensive. If I eventually need to, I will buy one from Ebay in the States. You do not know how lucky you guys are in the USA as bike parts are so cheap compared to NZ. Our prices are 3 times more expensive for the same items. This is why I buy from the USA because even with shipping it is a whole lot cheaper.
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I know exactly what you are talking about! My lst girlfriend was from Wellington area, she spent a couple months with me here. When I took her shopping it was like a kid in a candy store! She would tell me what stuff cost down there and WOW! But you can have the Quakes Brother!

If you need help getting anything shipped over, let me know, be glad to help!
 
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