Letter to Kawasaki
- Thread starter zl900_moab
- Start date
my suggestions for the v4 and ZL designation were primarily motivated by the desire to dream up a successful product line.
the v4 has the power and still has that lumpy idle sound that seems to be soooooo important to "most" cruser buyers. I will say that my vmax sounds very mean....like it wants to break stuff.... over someones head!
the ZL designation was suggested to maintain the lines heritage while eliminat-ing the association with what had sadly become a comuter bike label. maybe a suitable compromise would be for mama kaw to do away with the "eli" designation for that moped 125 that couldnt eliminate anything and re-designate a new line of big eli's as the "DOMINATOR" series......
I like the Idea of the two big bikes a 1400cc and a 1100cc. same concept in design as the originals, one slightly more cruser, the 1400 "Dominator" series, and one slighly more streetfighter\ cruser model ... the 1100 "Street Demon" series
I like the sound of that!
KAWASAKI DOMINATOR---MEET THE MONSTER.....
the v4 has the power and still has that lumpy idle sound that seems to be soooooo important to "most" cruser buyers. I will say that my vmax sounds very mean....like it wants to break stuff.... over someones head!
the ZL designation was suggested to maintain the lines heritage while eliminat-ing the association with what had sadly become a comuter bike label. maybe a suitable compromise would be for mama kaw to do away with the "eli" designation for that moped 125 that couldnt eliminate anything and re-designate a new line of big eli's as the "DOMINATOR" series......
I like the Idea of the two big bikes a 1400cc and a 1100cc. same concept in design as the originals, one slightly more cruser, the 1400 "Dominator" series, and one slighly more streetfighter\ cruser model ... the 1100 "Street Demon" series
I like the sound of that!
KAWASAKI DOMINATOR---MEET THE MONSTER.....
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list updated
The best you can hope for is a parts bin bike.
Only shaftdrives are V-twins and the Connie 14.
Unless there's a warehouse full of ZL bevel boxes somewhere
that they could convert ZRX motors to shaft.
But then you're close to a 14 so why bother.
If they built a ZL around the Connie motor it would resemble
a M/S with some parts in common.
Only shaftdrives are V-twins and the Connie 14.
Unless there's a warehouse full of ZL bevel boxes somewhere
that they could convert ZRX motors to shaft.
But then you're close to a 14 so why bother.
If they built a ZL around the Connie motor it would resemble
a M/S with some parts in common.
I'm with Bill on this.......his suggestions are the most reallistic and feaseable to make happen since Kaw will want to go to the parts bin as much as possible to produce a ZL1400. The visual in my head of the 1400 motor sitting inside the Meanstreak is really cool!!!! Mark
zlMark
Cult Leader
Sharing parts with the ZX14, ZG14, and the meanstreaks,, How much does a MS weigh dry?
It's heavy but I think a lot of that is the motor.
I would imagine the ZG/ZX motor is less.
Prostreet
Well-Known Member
MachIV, you are correct.The ZX14 engine doesn't weigh that much more (if any) than a 1000. Any Kawi engine over 1100 cc's has the cylinder liners removed (due to the casting bore already maxed out). As most of you know the 1200 and 1400 engine cylinders are electroplated for wear and I believe the crank & counterbalancers were beefed up with a lighter steel alloy, as are the valves, so the engines may be very close in weight. All the support hardware and drivetrain may put on a few lbs, but with that engine I doubt very much if it gives a crap. Case in point, if I race my buddy's zx10 with his 185 lbs and me on my Busa with my (ahem) 240 lbs its very close. Now when we switch bikes he totally destroys me in acceleration and roll-on. Although weight is a factor on performance,most any engine over 1000 cc's are much more forgiving with weight.And the larger the engine, the more forgiving. look at the new VMax...over 750 lbs and it still is a low 10 second machine with awesome roll-on performance.
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zub
Senior Member
awww all you lot want a 1400 lump becuase you're all fat! 
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zub
Senior Member
ahh not bad.
i'm 6'2", dont know exact weight but i'm pretty light, pretty sure i'm under 160lbs.
i'm 6'2", dont know exact weight but i'm pretty light, pretty sure i'm under 160lbs.
zl900_moab
Senior Member
Better frame could be done. But thats about the idea. Tubes vs stressed member...how far beyond "cruiser" do you want to go.
# 11. On Bach's list ...have a few different selections available at time of sale...could be a place to play with the "height" for different sized buyers. Other than that you nailed it! (NO V)
Designing something new would be the bucks for sure unless they are tooled up for that....Mach's got a point on the parts bin. Here ya' go, best case: Re-vamp the 900 and 1000 with weight and sensible modernizing..put them out quietly to those in the know (wink). Then go for Bacchus' list bike, do the marketing and stuff for a new ZL1400 Elidomistreakinator.
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zlMark
Cult Leader
No V's period! This will just open them up to consider other motor options. Then we will all be bitching just like the Voyager Owners
okay, here is my input on engines! keep in mind, this is only my opinion, & is not intended to badmouth these engines !
V-TWINS : although the perfomance of metric v-twins can be improved for an individuals tastes, to me it sounds like a person crapping after eatting too much mexican food !!!!!
V-FOURS : i have nothing bad to say with performance ! they are badass engines, but they can sometimes be a pain to work on, & with certain exaust options, sound like a modified v-8 out of a car !!!
INLINE FOURS : easier to work on, loads of potential when it comes to performance upgrades, & it sounds like a motor from a motorcycle !
when i'm out on the road riding, i want people to know i am coming on a motorcycle ! i dont want some 90 year old woman thinking that her husband just crapped his pants !!!
dont want people to be expecting a car coming up next to them, but rather know that i'm riding a much smaller object ( a motorcycle ) so they will be a little more cautious !!!
& last , but certainly not least, the sound of a inline four is very distinctive ! people know it's a motorcycle !!!!!
the only v-twins i like are ducati's, & RC51 (which was just recently brought to my attention as being a v-twin)
v-fours are awesome engines, but yamaha has already claimed that one with v-max.
i say, stay with the inline four !!!! CHRIS
V-TWINS : although the perfomance of metric v-twins can be improved for an individuals tastes, to me it sounds like a person crapping after eatting too much mexican food !!!!!
V-FOURS : i have nothing bad to say with performance ! they are badass engines, but they can sometimes be a pain to work on, & with certain exaust options, sound like a modified v-8 out of a car !!!
INLINE FOURS : easier to work on, loads of potential when it comes to performance upgrades, & it sounds like a motor from a motorcycle !
when i'm out on the road riding, i want people to know i am coming on a motorcycle ! i dont want some 90 year old woman thinking that her husband just crapped his pants !!!
dont want people to be expecting a car coming up next to them, but rather know that i'm riding a much smaller object ( a motorcycle ) so they will be a little more cautious !!!
& last , but certainly not least, the sound of a inline four is very distinctive ! people know it's a motorcycle !!!!!
the only v-twins i like are ducati's, & RC51 (which was just recently brought to my attention as being a v-twin)
v-fours are awesome engines, but yamaha has already claimed that one with v-max.
i say, stay with the inline four !!!! CHRIS
ok.... you know my spirit is with you on the I4 my brothers.
Personally, I have no problem with the I4 power plant, works for me. I am not in favor of the vtweeny -although I will say that the all harley drag racing guys are some how milking HUGE gains out of their v2's so there is performance in them **** things somewhare.
to me the eliminators are the "anti-vtwin" badass crusers, and that alone makes them somewhat unique. unique and differenent appeal to me, especially when you add the great Hp to the package!
when I was at the motorcycle show with my eliminators here in Phoenix, I was set up next to the main display for the motorcycle museum located in Ohio. this gave me a great opportunity to spend time talking bikes with the curiator of that museum, one of our discussions was on exhaust note, and the effect on sales.
To sumorize, one of the primary factors which drive a motorcycles sales is the way it sounds. this aspect is possibly as important as the appearance. this is THE reason that I4 powerplants are no longer in crusers. the average cruser guy has got to have that lumpy idle. by average, I mean most consumers. Including "most" consumers in the group of potential buyers goes directly to a viable product line. Having a viable, marketable, and likely to be successfull, design goes directly to why should Kaw listen to us, and consider this idea.
personally, I like this idea. I want to get something going with this letter, and attempt to gain some input into kaw's product line, hell maybe even get them to discuss a new eli\dom line. I do feel that it is well worth our while to take some time to hammer out the concept as effectively as possible before any efforts are made in letter writing or other. we should also consider the opinions of our over-seas eli brothers. Although Ive got a feeling that the american spec eli and the europe spec eli may be very different, all things should be considered. Besides in order to have a successful product, it has to sell outside the usa as well, and in addition, the eli- has a tremendous cult following outside the usa. Tapping into this potential customer base is essential. so you foriegn guys POST UP!! and specify that you are outside the USA.
Kaw. guy at the show says the mean streak is done and will no longer be produced, what does that leave them with in the performance cruser niche???--NOTHIN' ! The rep tried to convince me that the V2000 fit the bill. I told him that if the v20 could beat my ZL1000 in the 1\4 mile I would trade it in for the v20. This challange\ offer to buy was declined. Im sure for the obvious reason that the v20 is just a jap hog and would have gotten waisted off the line and all the way to the finish. big displacement alone does not make a performance cruser.
why did the mean streak fail? personaly, I think it failed because it did not live up to the name. It has a mean paint job, and a mean name, but ultimately its is not so mean when it comes to performance. I think if you want to sell your new bike as a "mean" one these days, you need to be running low 11's or BETTER!!! otherwise, you aint so mean. do you guys agree here? what should be the target time??
I think this is an important spec. so post up what you think this product would have to run in order to be "the" badass cruser
Also wondering if a reverse engineering approach to spec sheet development is in order. In other words, how about we post up some thoughts, opinions, and whare they exist the facts as to why the Eli line was not a success in terms of a viable line with strong sales figures and was so short lived in terms of production.
I know some of you guys are probably thinkin'
"who gives a f* about sales.. I know what I want !" While I understand this perspective, I just want to say that unless we have a potentially viable, marketable, and likely to be successful plan, there is no point in writing any letters or making any efforts whatsoever. Ultimately this idea would be accepted or denied by a board of directors or other business director that will choose to kill it or produce product based on the bottom line $$$$$
this I know..... people pay good money for opinions. Here in phoenix I have somehow gotten onto the market reasearch list. seems like I get a couple calls a month from one of a few of these companies that have my name, they pre-screen you over the phone, if you fit the demographic that they are looking for you are "invited" to take part in a focus group. this session is usually one or two hours long, they show you drawings, discuss the features the customers want etc.. once even got to play with a prototype, they want the groups input on the product they are considering making, and are willing to pay for this input. For my time and my opinion I am paid $100 per hr. I dont know about you guys but I think that is pretty fat cash for my time and opinions!!!
I have no doubt that somewhare right now somebody is getting thier $100 per hour from Mama Kaw.
Im thinkin' we could be saving mama some $$$$- I would like to continue working on this and dial in an attractive concept to pitch. I do feel we need to be able to respond to a statment like " well If the original diddnt sell that many units, why would we make another one?" This is why we need to analyze why the originals are great cult bikes, and keep what made that happen, and identify why the unit sales were not up to the necessary level as to maintain production, and come up with solutions. the bottom line is the tighter our concept is the more likely we are to see some success in our attempts to sway Mama Kaw to our way of thinking. Also keep in mind that what we haven't got nailed down will probably be turned over to a nerdy engeneer with a laptop and auto cad to complete. I dont want a guy who drives a volvo to get his mits on this concept. This needs to be a bike for guy who use words like grunt, power, and badasssss on a daily basis!
here is my suggestions on how to proceede.
1. fact\opinion gathering
2. spec sheet development
3. spec sheet approval- when specs are adequately dialed in we post a survey to accept or decline. A group vote as to weather or not the specs would be acceptable and would be suffecient to intice you into ordering a "new" unit. Memers that choose decline should identify the reason the proposed concept is not acceptable. In order for specs to be approved there must be an 80% or better approval rating. If pre-determined approval rating is not met, back to spec sheet development until we get a concept that is attractive to the super majority.
4. Letter writing\development\Acceptance- produce letter to Mama kaw, post on this site for critique and further input, rewrite as necessray, seek super majority vote to accept, same as spec sheet process.
5. Get better connected and coridinated with outside of the USA Eli groups to assist us in this, get them to buy in too.
6. establish and approve a design concept drawing. I would like to see us maintain controlls and input in the visual characture of this concept, other wise they may design up a lunar modual and call it an eliminator----sends chills up my spine!
7. Determine whare \ who is the appropriate person or location to be recieving, there may be more than one.
8. Begin the attack!!! we could post up the final approved letter to Kaw on this site in a PDF file. this will allow all members to download the document, sign it, and send it to Kaw. individually. The Idea is that a large numbers of letters flooding into Kaw may be capeable of getting some "buzz" going or at the very least assist us in achieving #9
9. Establish point of contact with Kaw and begin dialog. the vmax guys did it with yamama..... I wont be one uped by those guys!
10. Convince them that we have a viable product concept by way of a carefully considered plan
11. negotiate the deep zl-oa discount --HEY ITS OUR CONCEPT --WE DESERVE IT!
12. BUY 'EM, RIDE 'EM, LAUGH AT EVERYONE WHO DONT GOT ONE!
I would be willing to write this letter. after all I am a wordy mo-fo. I would also include in this document the results of some of our survey questions as I belive that these results are an excellent way to establish that we are as a group an ideal demographic for new bike sales.
here is another important question???? Is there an artist in the house????
im not going to submit that cartoon bike as our concept!
Personally, I have no problem with the I4 power plant, works for me. I am not in favor of the vtweeny -although I will say that the all harley drag racing guys are some how milking HUGE gains out of their v2's so there is performance in them **** things somewhare.
to me the eliminators are the "anti-vtwin" badass crusers, and that alone makes them somewhat unique. unique and differenent appeal to me, especially when you add the great Hp to the package!
when I was at the motorcycle show with my eliminators here in Phoenix, I was set up next to the main display for the motorcycle museum located in Ohio. this gave me a great opportunity to spend time talking bikes with the curiator of that museum, one of our discussions was on exhaust note, and the effect on sales.
To sumorize, one of the primary factors which drive a motorcycles sales is the way it sounds. this aspect is possibly as important as the appearance. this is THE reason that I4 powerplants are no longer in crusers. the average cruser guy has got to have that lumpy idle. by average, I mean most consumers. Including "most" consumers in the group of potential buyers goes directly to a viable product line. Having a viable, marketable, and likely to be successfull, design goes directly to why should Kaw listen to us, and consider this idea.
personally, I like this idea. I want to get something going with this letter, and attempt to gain some input into kaw's product line, hell maybe even get them to discuss a new eli\dom line. I do feel that it is well worth our while to take some time to hammer out the concept as effectively as possible before any efforts are made in letter writing or other. we should also consider the opinions of our over-seas eli brothers. Although Ive got a feeling that the american spec eli and the europe spec eli may be very different, all things should be considered. Besides in order to have a successful product, it has to sell outside the usa as well, and in addition, the eli- has a tremendous cult following outside the usa. Tapping into this potential customer base is essential. so you foriegn guys POST UP!! and specify that you are outside the USA.
Kaw. guy at the show says the mean streak is done and will no longer be produced, what does that leave them with in the performance cruser niche???--NOTHIN' ! The rep tried to convince me that the V2000 fit the bill. I told him that if the v20 could beat my ZL1000 in the 1\4 mile I would trade it in for the v20. This challange\ offer to buy was declined. Im sure for the obvious reason that the v20 is just a jap hog and would have gotten waisted off the line and all the way to the finish. big displacement alone does not make a performance cruser.
why did the mean streak fail? personaly, I think it failed because it did not live up to the name. It has a mean paint job, and a mean name, but ultimately its is not so mean when it comes to performance. I think if you want to sell your new bike as a "mean" one these days, you need to be running low 11's or BETTER!!! otherwise, you aint so mean. do you guys agree here? what should be the target time??
I think this is an important spec. so post up what you think this product would have to run in order to be "the" badass cruser
Also wondering if a reverse engineering approach to spec sheet development is in order. In other words, how about we post up some thoughts, opinions, and whare they exist the facts as to why the Eli line was not a success in terms of a viable line with strong sales figures and was so short lived in terms of production.
I know some of you guys are probably thinkin'
"who gives a f* about sales.. I know what I want !" While I understand this perspective, I just want to say that unless we have a potentially viable, marketable, and likely to be successful plan, there is no point in writing any letters or making any efforts whatsoever. Ultimately this idea would be accepted or denied by a board of directors or other business director that will choose to kill it or produce product based on the bottom line $$$$$
this I know..... people pay good money for opinions. Here in phoenix I have somehow gotten onto the market reasearch list. seems like I get a couple calls a month from one of a few of these companies that have my name, they pre-screen you over the phone, if you fit the demographic that they are looking for you are "invited" to take part in a focus group. this session is usually one or two hours long, they show you drawings, discuss the features the customers want etc.. once even got to play with a prototype, they want the groups input on the product they are considering making, and are willing to pay for this input. For my time and my opinion I am paid $100 per hr. I dont know about you guys but I think that is pretty fat cash for my time and opinions!!!
I have no doubt that somewhare right now somebody is getting thier $100 per hour from Mama Kaw.
Im thinkin' we could be saving mama some $$$$- I would like to continue working on this and dial in an attractive concept to pitch. I do feel we need to be able to respond to a statment like " well If the original diddnt sell that many units, why would we make another one?" This is why we need to analyze why the originals are great cult bikes, and keep what made that happen, and identify why the unit sales were not up to the necessary level as to maintain production, and come up with solutions. the bottom line is the tighter our concept is the more likely we are to see some success in our attempts to sway Mama Kaw to our way of thinking. Also keep in mind that what we haven't got nailed down will probably be turned over to a nerdy engeneer with a laptop and auto cad to complete. I dont want a guy who drives a volvo to get his mits on this concept. This needs to be a bike for guy who use words like grunt, power, and badasssss on a daily basis!
here is my suggestions on how to proceede.
1. fact\opinion gathering
2. spec sheet development
3. spec sheet approval- when specs are adequately dialed in we post a survey to accept or decline. A group vote as to weather or not the specs would be acceptable and would be suffecient to intice you into ordering a "new" unit. Memers that choose decline should identify the reason the proposed concept is not acceptable. In order for specs to be approved there must be an 80% or better approval rating. If pre-determined approval rating is not met, back to spec sheet development until we get a concept that is attractive to the super majority.
4. Letter writing\development\Acceptance- produce letter to Mama kaw, post on this site for critique and further input, rewrite as necessray, seek super majority vote to accept, same as spec sheet process.
5. Get better connected and coridinated with outside of the USA Eli groups to assist us in this, get them to buy in too.
6. establish and approve a design concept drawing. I would like to see us maintain controlls and input in the visual characture of this concept, other wise they may design up a lunar modual and call it an eliminator----sends chills up my spine!
7. Determine whare \ who is the appropriate person or location to be recieving, there may be more than one.
8. Begin the attack!!! we could post up the final approved letter to Kaw on this site in a PDF file. this will allow all members to download the document, sign it, and send it to Kaw. individually. The Idea is that a large numbers of letters flooding into Kaw may be capeable of getting some "buzz" going or at the very least assist us in achieving #9
9. Establish point of contact with Kaw and begin dialog. the vmax guys did it with yamama..... I wont be one uped by those guys!
10. Convince them that we have a viable product concept by way of a carefully considered plan
11. negotiate the deep zl-oa discount --HEY ITS OUR CONCEPT --WE DESERVE IT!
12. BUY 'EM, RIDE 'EM, LAUGH AT EVERYONE WHO DONT GOT ONE!
I would be willing to write this letter. after all I am a wordy mo-fo. I would also include in this document the results of some of our survey questions as I belive that these results are an excellent way to establish that we are as a group an ideal demographic for new bike sales.
here is another important question???? Is there an artist in the house????
im not going to submit that cartoon bike as our concept!
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zlMark
Cult Leader
The next bike will have to live up to it's name or it will flop just like all the others. Really how many do they have to sell to keep them produced? Look at the ZRX, great bike no longer available for the USA. Anyone know the sales figures for the ZRX? I would suspect them to be pretty high.
Back to the bike. I don't see why they couldn't make a killer cruiser with an I4. With todays technology they should be able to produce a bike similiar to the old one in size and weight that will handle the HP and torque of the new Eliminator motor.
Back to the bike. I don't see why they couldn't make a killer cruiser with an I4. With todays technology they should be able to produce a bike similiar to the old one in size and weight that will handle the HP and torque of the new Eliminator motor.
The tooling to build stuff usually has a life of around 10 years.
After that a redesign or rebuild of the tooling and keep making the same thing.
(we all know what HD does)
So that gives the M/S tooling a few more.
You need to suggest existing parts from various models to keep
costs down.
This is what they do,how on earth do you think I managed to build my 12.
Connie 14 motor and shaftdrive and M/S suspension on a redisigned M/S
frame.
I've already described my idea of it in another thread here.
It neeeds to be parts bin,up to date and still recognizable as a ZL.
I could come up with something that would sell.
After that a redesign or rebuild of the tooling and keep making the same thing.
(we all know what HD does)
So that gives the M/S tooling a few more.
You need to suggest existing parts from various models to keep
costs down.
This is what they do,how on earth do you think I managed to build my 12.
Connie 14 motor and shaftdrive and M/S suspension on a redisigned M/S
frame.
I've already described my idea of it in another thread here.
It neeeds to be parts bin,up to date and still recognizable as a ZL.
I could come up with something that would sell.
Prostreet
Well-Known Member
If the 10 yr rule is true, how did the vmax endure over 20 yrs? That bike really fell on its face back in the mid nineties. No way you can tell me sales were all that great at that time. I don't know how the manufactures decide this but I suppose some of them wipe the slate clean as soon as sales drop over a certain percentage and other keep producing it as long as they are selling.. Go figure.
I like your idea MIV
if we can demonstrate how this could be achieved at a conservitive start up cost to Kaw this would be a powerfully persuasive point to be considered by the bottom line $$$boys at Kaw.
would you take lead in establishing the "parts bin" for the concept. I think your level of understanding is probably better than most of us due to the extensive mods you have done to your eli
personally, Im not sold on the mean streak as the base but, at this point all things should be considered and when I better understand this, I may change my mind
Mark, excellent point. knowing what the target number of sales would need to be in order to establish a viable line is of the upmost importance. we need more research in this area.
Prost. I suspect that by the time the vmax sales flattened out that the start up costs had already been absorbed and the profit margin on the design was very high. they did not change much over that 20yr period. minimal retooling, twenty years of sales, dont need to sell as many at that point to maintain a healthy margin.
if we can demonstrate how this could be achieved at a conservitive start up cost to Kaw this would be a powerfully persuasive point to be considered by the bottom line $$$boys at Kaw.
would you take lead in establishing the "parts bin" for the concept. I think your level of understanding is probably better than most of us due to the extensive mods you have done to your eli
personally, Im not sold on the mean streak as the base but, at this point all things should be considered and when I better understand this, I may change my mind
Mark, excellent point. knowing what the target number of sales would need to be in order to establish a viable line is of the upmost importance. we need more research in this area.
Prost. I suspect that by the time the vmax sales flattened out that the start up costs had already been absorbed and the profit margin on the design was very high. they did not change much over that 20yr period. minimal retooling, twenty years of sales, dont need to sell as many at that point to maintain a healthy margin.
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